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« on: June 17, 2010, 05:42:10 AM » by typhoon84
Hi Guys,

I'm interested in buying a boresighter to sight in my .223 cal. bolt action rifle.

What do you guys recommend ? I was looking at the Laserlyte laser bore sighter.

Thanks Smiley

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2010, 10:11:26 AM » by Vincent
They are ok but expect varied results and limitations.
Dont forget that they align according to the barrel crown, besides it is sometimes difficult to get an accurate fix on some rifling types.
So the result is acceptably close in some cases, but can drive you nuts in others.
I tore my hair out trying to adjust a S&W model 14 using a laser bore sighter.
Took me far longer than if I had done so on a range with live ammo.
If you are new to firearms just give it so sombody with a bit of experience.

If you are taking your rifle abroad and dont to wish to spend buckets, just ask somebody in the know and he will do it for you.
You can also bore sight in some cases.
Remove the bolt and look through the bore.
In anycase a few shots at 25m will take you as far or better than 1 hour with a laser.

I would save my money for ammo.

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2010, 10:25:18 AM » by RB
I have a Bushnell. It's cheap and it works well and it will get you on target at 100m which is useful. Will work only at low light levels, the dot is invisible in sunlight at distance.

However, useless on pistols, as recoil plays such a great part in where the bullet ends up, and a boresighter of course can only indicate where the barrel is pointing prior to when the shot is taken which is generally not where it will be pointing at the time when the bullet exits the barrel.

With a bolt gun however you may save your bucks and look down the bore, set up a high definition target spot at a distance and you will be more than close enough for range zeroing. I even did that to double check on my AR15. End of the day also consider that you will quite possibly only be using this gadget once, or once in a very long while.



The Bright Side: "Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2010, 11:47:43 AM » by Vincent
Recoil plays an insignificant part of where bullet lands.
Recoil has an effect on the shooter expectations causing variations on flinching and other minor inputs by the shooter.

Its a very common misconception.
Its extermly difficult to shoot well with pistol unless some fundumentals are learnt at the earliest.

If a prospective shooter does not consider these basics and train in a commensurate fashion, he's fucked bigtime.
It will be very difficult to undo at a later stage.

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2010, 12:38:23 PM » by RB
Recoil plays an insignificant part of where bullet lands.

The accelleration of the firearm rearwards due to recoil starts the instant that the bullet starts moving still inside the case. Once the bullet and all gases exit the bore, the accelleration stops (but not the recoil of course). In short, recoil velocity is at it's max just as the bullet and gases exit. If there were no accelleration during this period then there would not be any recoil, ever, for the only force that could produce recoil is now no longer.

It is a misconception that there is anything in physics that dictates that time stands still for the gun but not for the bullet, only to resume once the bullet has left the barrel.

If recoil were insignificant then all that brouhaha about bedding, all those benchrest stocks specifically designed so the gun recoils directly backwards rather than in any other plane as with a sporter stock, and more extremely "rail" guns, all those handstops ensuring a consistent hold on a rifle, all of that would not exist as once recoil is insignificant and the bullet has left the bore - who cares what happens afterwards with the gun. Also, if recoil were insignificant, then who cares whether one used whatever loads in a pistol, who cares whether in the single magazine one would mix and match bullet weights, brands, and loadings - after all, allowing for certain loads possibly being more precisely weighed and more accurate, all bullets would end up at the same POI. Which is so seriously not the case, and case rested! And which is why you never managed to boresight your pistol.  Wink


The Bright Side: "Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2010, 13:21:32 PM » by Vincent
Where do I begin  Huh

In the case of a handgun, yes there is recoil the instant the bullet starts moving, but the bullet is out of the barrel before the greater portion of the "lift".
The bottom line is that this small part of barrel position change due to recoil, is INSIGNIFICANT compared to the input by the shooter, in the case for handguns especially.
From the instant the trigger starts to move, to even a short period AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel, its mainly what the shooter does that throws the projectile away from "bore".

The question of loads, bullets , powders, cases diameters etc etc do have a major pull in deciding where the bullet goes, but not because of simple recoil. Thats why even a rifle in a vice will throw according to loads and variables.
There are so many parameters involved that its really beyond the scope here.

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2010, 14:46:09 PM » by Sti-Edge
Try the Bushnell boresighter. It's not expensive. If it does not work, go back to shooting/manual adjustment.


  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 15:37:28 PM » by typhoon84

Thanks a lot for your replies. I think that the best idea is looking through the bore  Cool


  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 19:16:46 PM » by RB
There are so many parameters involved that its really beyond the scope here.

Do I smell a getout clause  Grin  Grin  Grin


The Bright Side: "Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 19:45:56 PM » by Vincent
No I just dont want to bore everyone here silly.  Grin
Besides, so many variables effect the end result, and many of them interrelated, that it becomes a pointless exercise.
You might end up with a situation where the pressure curve and not peak pressure will effect one type of bullet in a particular barrel etc etc. Blahhhh !
Handguns are very dependent on shooter input, perhaps more than rifles.
Even in such short barrels, what happens during dwell time, is the most significant player.
The problem is that everything is so tiny and short lived that its goes unnoticed.

Then of course shooters start complaining of inexplicable behaviour of particualr pistols or revolvers.
Generally its a case of lack of awareness of the fundumentals.
For example S&W M52 pistiols are super fine and precise; But are very unforgiving of bad trigger technique, so you might do well and suddenly start throwing 8's and 7's for no obvious reason. In this case its the geometry about the trigger.

There are many other devious cases ( revolver ergonomics come to mind) but for the sake of this argument, an aspiring pistolero would be better served learning the basic principles, rather than thinking that recoil and loads are what throws the bad and good shots. The obvious obscures the truth.

Carefull analysis devoid of preconceptions to get somewhere.
A dash of humility helps; Look up, you will find the worlds best often discussing these issues.
Its a good start.

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 22:04:03 PM » by bergerbullets
boresighters can be useful but then again with the price of one, you can buy yourself some quality cases. follow this easy procedure, should be as easy and you will zero in one shot.

1) Place your rifle in a rack/rest so that it does not move,

2) Remove the bolt and make sure the barrel points at target

3) look through your scope and make sure the cross hair of the optics are on target roughly.

4) place cross hairs on specific aiming point on paper and Fire First round.

5) Now place the rifle on the rest again and while you center the cross hairs on the same Aiming point once again, you should be able to see the hole somewhere on the paper. Lets assume you hit low.

6) without touching the rifle, spin the turrets of your scope and you will see that the reticle starts moving. You have to spin the turret in the Up direction so internally the cross hair moves down. you will actually see it moving downwards. when the reticle moves low enough to be on the shot hole your rifle is zeroed. 1 shot method:)

7) do the same for windage

range it, dial it, squeeze the round off.
Certified Precision Rifle Handloader, Basic & Advanced- Russell Simmonds Reloading School - UK

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2010, 05:06:06 AM » by mildot

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2010, 11:16:07 AM » by RB
Le Vincenzo - I never said that shooter input does not count, or that it is not THE major factor for accurate shooting, bla bla bla. I agree fully.

Your claim was that recoil is insignificant as a factor as to where the bullet ends up in relation to where the barrel is pointing before the shot is taken. Remember we started off with boresighting, and your own claim that it was almost impossible with your pistol.

I beg to differ on that point only, that recoil in that respect is not an issue. I don't even state that recoil in itself is an obstruction to accurate shooting - if the recoil is consistent (again, shooter input) then the result will be consistent. We are only discussing the technical merits of is there or is there not recoil with bullet in barrel that affects the POI noticeably.

Just consider this - it is not unreasonable to state that the muzzle of a magnum revolver flips 10cm upon firing. Assume that at the time of departure of the bullet from the muzzle, out of the entire 100mm of flip, the gun has flipped only a miserly 1% of this figure.

Which makes it 1mm.

Assume the total length from muzzle to pivot point to be a generous 12 inches, or 30cm.

That 1mm at the muzzle, at 25m, will translate into 2500/30 = 83mm

Now the above figures are purely guesswork, but only to demonstrate that even a tiny bit of recoil before the bullet departs the muzzle, results in 8.3 cm difference between where the barrel was pointing before the shot was taken and where it is pointing as the bullet departs and hence where the bullet will end up.

Guesswork, but I'd say that the figures are conservative.

Practically I can say that I was getting rather consistent 3"-4" groups using Remington .357s. Nothing special of course, but sufficient to be able to get a decent zero and adjust the sights accordingly. These are quite heavy recoiling cartridges, but I did not realise until later, when I compared to what's coming next.

I tried S&B. The first shot, I thought, woohaa, what's up, way out, and gave myself "nil points". I also noted that the recoil was very noticeably reduced.

But subsequent shots all went pretty much to the same place, again a respectable if mediocre group, but very very distinctly around 6" off the Remington zero.

The main difference is that the Selliers are much softer shooters than the Remington.

Same shooter, same day, same groups - but in majorly different places.

There does not IMHO appear to be any factor other than the varying recoil that at such a short distance (IIRC 20m) could account for the effective nominal and massive 30MOA difference in POI.

Some very rough further calculations would indicate that assuming a 30% difference in recoil values, the movement of the muzzle with bullet in barrel would be far more than the above suggested 1mm to result in the difference experienced between the varying loads.

Maybe someone can trawl up some hi-speed photography that gives an indication.



The Bright Side: "Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

  Re: Boresighter
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 11:29:57 AM » by Vincent
There are some high speed handgun clips on you tube.
Naturally I dont expect heavy recoil to have NO effect on bullet placement.
However what I was trying to say is a little different:

The shooters perception ( of recoil in this case) and resultant action has a greater influence on bullet impact than anything else;
Provided of course that the objective is to send a bullet wherever you intend to.

There are a number of factors involved in this and I dont think its a good idea to discuss the details here, for fear of boring everybody silly ( besides, I am no expert).

There are a number of forums and discusion boards where you will find top shooters and coaches, who have the necessary craft and savvy to follow up the finer details.
Doing so will keep everyone comfortable.


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