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  FX Monsoon
« on: November 16, 2007, 08:17:01 AM » by karbine
I have one of these beauties on order, looks like a lovely bit of kit Cheesy



Don't you just hate those weeks between setting your heart on something and actually aquiring it  Cry

Still, looks like it will be worth the wait Cheesy
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  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2007, 09:17:15 AM » by RB
That's uber-cool Karbine, I really would wish to take a close peek at the works of that gun. I have a particular interest as believe it or not, before even knowing that such a gun existed, filed away in my grey matter I have blueprints (or should that be grey?) for a semi-auto air gun that works on the same principle.

Suppose I'm a bit too late to the patent office  Embarrassed

I see that this is a 30-ft lbs gun, I can also see why this is unlikely to be produced to lesser powers. Haha, well what I do have in mind should do the trick  Lips sealed

RB
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The Bright Side: "Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 09:53:07 AM » by karbine
I agree that the high power is a factor as the firing mechanism works by bleeding air from each shot.  This can be seen more clearly in the Monsoon's predecessor, the FX revolution:



I believe that there were other high powered semi-autos developed in the UK by Daystate and Skan but they were discouraged from marketing them because of government legislation that only allows 22LR semi auto (excluding shotguns).

For lower power, the mechanism would have to be direct blowback - there is at least one air rifle that uses such a mechanism, the NewMatics PM16 that fires 0.22 lead balls at just under 11 ft/lbs, but at a blistering 900 rounds per minute Shocked


 
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  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 10:00:37 AM » by RB
I agree that the high power is a factor as the firing mechanism works by bleeding air from each shot. 

Does not, actually. It uses the air pressure vented after the pellet has actually left the barrel, and which thus would normally has no further useful work to do, hence the "wasted" air claim. At least that is what can be understood from the pics and text, if not, then I'm still in time  Grin

This makes for greater consistency than if part of the pressure released by the exhaust valve would concurrently propel the pellet and also cycle the action - in fact there is no reason why the Monsoon would be any less accurate or consistent than a simple bolt action rifle.

RB
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The Bright Side: "Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 10:35:10 AM » by Quantumshot
FX machining capabilities and close tolerances should ensure valve mechanism works consistently thus ensuring each shot is consistant to guarantee accuracy in semi-auto too.

Rgds
Eric
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Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2007, 11:17:08 AM » by karbine
Quote
Does not, actually. It uses the air pressure vented after the pellet has actually left the barrel, and which thus would normally has no further useful work to do, hence the "wasted" air claim

if the pellet has left the barrel, then the muzzle is open and any air pressure will take the path of least resistance, so presumably either some pressure is bled while the pellet is still blocking off the muzzle (but not necessarily in the barrel) of it's the actual muzzle blast that pushes on some sort of recocking mechanism.  I tried searching for the patent but to no avail. 

Perhaps Eric can enlighten us?
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  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 12:26:32 PM » by RB
You undoubtedly note that all these guns have a form of moderator of sorts. What moderators do is provide a chamber or chambers where the blast of air can expand, and eventually bleed off at a far slower rate than would be the case direct from the barrel. The baffles, apart from creating the expansion chambers, also create resistance to the air's exit, being as they are, a SERIES of holes. There would be considerable pressure buildup within the moderator in the immediate aftermath of a shot, especially in the first chamber, which can only eventually exit via the (relatively) small holes that are the pellet's exit hole. It would be this pressure buildup that would provide the energy for the cycling.

If you have ever experimented with moderators, you may have noted that if not firmly attached to the barrel, it will fly off. (Been there, done that  Embarrassed )

Yes, there is a hole in the works, which is why such a system would need a not  inconsiderable amount of air volume to function. Hence the 30 ft/lbs.

My design takes out the hole  Lips sealed

RB
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The Bright Side: "Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 13:09:25 PM » by karbine
Quote
If you have ever experimented with moderators, you may have noted that if not firmly attached to the barrel, it will fly off. (Been there, done that   )

likewise Cheesy it's likely that the Monsoon uses this effect, as I doubt it generates enough pressures (compared to the tens of thousands of psi generated in assault rifles etc.) to operate a conventional gas piston mechanism that firearms use.  i guess I'll know for sure when the rifle arrives Smiley
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  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2007, 21:00:18 PM » by dvd
A good clue as to its operation is the volume of the "gas " tube connecting the barrel to the breech mechanism.
Some semi autos actually bleed some gas off, but on an air gun this would be wasteful. Like Eric said, close tollerance engineering and I add to that, light weight metals in the reciprocating parts to minimize inertia, is the trick to an efficient system.
Perhaps a good indication how efficient it is,  is to shoot say 40 shots in semi auto mode and record the residual pressure in the tank. Then top up to the same level as previously and shoot another 40 shots in manual mode and compare the residual pressure in the tank. The difference in psi readings would have been used to cycle the action.
I must say it is an interesting design and highly tempting for a self confessed springer man. Smiley
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  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2007, 22:48:41 PM » by sasmalta
Now we have to count your shots also !
Karabine how can we trust you  Grin
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  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2007, 08:22:34 AM » by karbine
hehe is the double tap allowed in HFT? Cheesy

RB, an interesting option that would completely bypass the need for using air to cycle the action would be to base a semi-auto prototype on the Daystate Mk.3 (though it is a bit of an expensive rifle to be cutting up) - since the said rifle uses a solenoid as a hammer, there is no hammer spring to recock, all you need to do is cycle the magazine - so you could either design a new mag that feeds automatically, or as a simpler solution include another solenoid that acts on the existing bolt action.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 12:10:46 PM by karbine »
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  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2007, 15:07:19 PM » by Quantumshot
Yes Karbine and at that rate the Mk3 will end up weighing a ton and will become a mobile magnet  Grin

Jokes apart Belas at Daystate had once told me they had made a design for the AirRanger model to be in full auto since it had room for the mechanism in its power plant.  However I never saw it, not even when I went to their factory.
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Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2007, 15:16:03 PM » by karbine
Once you're working with solenoids, full auto is more than possible (as with the Baikal Drozd however over 1 ft/lbs that would make it an illegal section 5 weapon in the UK - which leads me to ask, is there a similar restriction on full auto in Maltese law?  There must be a cut-off somewhere, since full auto firearms are illegal and automatic airsoft rifles are legal.
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  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2007, 11:39:15 AM » by dvd
Hi karbine,

Should they be lumped together with fire arms?

Pcp air-guns do not have any "fire" in them and therefore are not fire-arms in the true sense of the word. The propellant is compressed air, nothing  else.
Once this fact is acknowledged, it follows that automatic air guns  should not be classed with automatic fire-arms if they use air as a propellant. The point  is the method of cycling the rounds   is what should be taken into account not the propellant used to project them. They can never hope to achieve the same power as a full auto fire arm. They are miles apart and should be treated on their own merits.

On a more practical note, however appealing they might sound, I doubt that they will ever be commercially made because of limitations on air capacity.They would probably use one refill for one  30 round magazine if any reasonable power is to be expected, not to mention the last few rounds drooping too low in their trajectory. 
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  Re: FX Monsoon
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2007, 11:58:35 AM » by karbine
Pcp air-guns do not have any "fire" in them and therefore are not fire-arms in the true sense of the word. The propellant is compressed air, nothing  else.
Once this fact is acknowledged, it follows that automatic air guns  should not be classed with automatic fire-arms if they use air as a propellant. The point  is the method of cycling the rounds   is what should be taken into account not the propellant used to project them. They can never hope to achieve the same power as a full auto fire arm. They are miles apart and should be treated on their own merits.

No doubt about that, but for example in the UK, for legal purposes, and airgun over 12 ft/lbs is a de-facto firearm.  FAC air rifles usually have far less power tha even the lowly 22 rimfire round, but even so they are potentially lethal so I see nothing wrong with them given the same legal status as other powder burning weapons.

Quote
On a more practical note, however appealing they might sound, I doubt that they will ever be commercially made because of limitations on air capacity.They would probably use one refill for one  30 round magazine if any reasonable power is to be expected, not to mention the last few rounds drooping too low in their trajectory.


Some people have high powered big bore rifles that they are happy to refil from their SCUBA tankl every six shots, so if you can live with that, why not.  As linked to earlier in the thread, there are fully automatic airguns at over 10 ft/lbs that are commerically available in the US. 
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 (Read 21002 times) [1] 2 3 4
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